AEON Community - feb_28

camthegeek 28-Feb-19 07:15 PM

test from meeting channel to irc.

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 07:15 PM

<camthegeek> received!

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 07:33 PM

Ok

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 08:18 PM

<BigSlim> hi

<stoffu> Hi

<stoffu> Another interesting thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/avnklu/money_is_not_just_about_technology_its_about/

r/Monero - Money is not just about technology, it's about psycholo...

16 votes and 26 comments so far on Reddit

<monerobux> [REDDIT] Money is not just about technology, it's about psychology too. (self.Monero) | 17 points (77.0%) | 26 comments | Posted by keksov | Created at 2019-02-28 - 05:54:31

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 08:57 PM

Meeting Starts in 5 Minutes

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 09:00 PM

<smooth> If you are talking about general purpose equipment then there is no major cost to changing algorithms. That's sort of double edged sword of it

<camthegeek> time is money

420Coupe 28-Feb-19 09:00 PM

^

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 09:01 PM

<smooth> Not much time to switch miners. Or autoswitch for that matter

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 09:01 PM

Hello everyone and welcome to the Community meeting for 2282019!

IT's our Second Community meeting since we started

First I just want to thank everyone that stopped by for the meeting and thanks to everyone in the community who has contributed or is currently contributing to the Aeon project!

Let's start off with a quick recap of the past 2 months since our last meeting:

We invite everyone to visit the Aeon community GitHub repo that was set up. https://github.com/AEONCommunity

AEON Community

Projects and documents developed by the AEON Community for the benefit of others. - AEON Community

This repo was created for community members to have a central source for everything Aeon outside the main codebase. Also check out our webpage https://aeoncommunity.github.io

AEON Community Pages

Various and sundry information related to the AEON digital currency

Props to @thriftyMinnow for his work on a general Aeon Whitepaper https://github.com/AEONCommunity/aeon-whitepaper

AEONCommunity/aeon-whitepaper

This is a proposed AEON whitepaper, to be considered by the community. - AEONCommunity/aeon-whitepaper

Ahh for anyone interested in the Agenda for the meeting feel free to check out the topics here: http://paste.debian.net/hidden/393585b0/

Props to @camthegeek for his AFS that was set up for funding community projects: https://aeonfunding.com/

AEON Funding System

AEON Funding System - Make proposals related to AEON and get paid in cryptocurrency (AEON)!

Please take note for the latest Funding projects up: 25 & 24 marketing.

Any questions or comments from anyone in attendance today?

camthegeek 28-Feb-19 09:10 PM

no? nothing but props and thanks so far.

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 09:10 PM

heh

Thunderosa 28-Feb-19 09:11 PM

nope, all good stuff

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 09:11 PM

good deal. Let's move on to the juicy stuff: Community Discussions

One topic brought up was our Community Fund on AFS. Not many people know about this, but it was set up as a fund where the community (or anyone) can donate to this and then decide how the funds are spent. https://aeonfunding.com/donate

AEON Funding System

AEON Funding System - Make proposals related to AEON and get paid in cryptocurrency (AEON)!

Are there any comments or suggestions on this fund and how we should spend funds currently?

328 Aeons in there right now

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 09:14 PM

<camthegeek> Nope. I've continued to keep adding over the past few months. Perhaps a decent proposal will come along.

BMO-noire 28-Feb-19 09:14 PM

I'd like to encourage that a set amount be spend bi-weekly just to encourage activity. For lack of better ideas, maybe donate a pizza to a community member who has done something notable the week prior?

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 09:14 PM

I have been contributing 5 -10 aeon each week

Sounds like a good idea BMO.

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 09:15 PM

<camthegeek> Maybe some silly giveaway again.

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 09:16 PM

😉

I have another giveaway ready, just waiting to get it posted up.

BMO, would you like to take up the task of brainstorming some ideas for funds to be spent? Possibly make a reddit post for donation exercises?

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 09:17 PM

<camthegeek> Then continue to build that fund up until something big comes around.

BMO-noire 28-Feb-19 09:18 PM

well, since devs are here, I'd like to talk about PoW algorithms so we can switch as soon as possible

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 09:18 PM

ok

so you do not want to take the task of making ideas to spend the fund?

BMO-noire 28-Feb-19 09:19 PM

sure, I'll think of something to post

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 09:19 PM

Ok sounds great. Until then let's keep adding those aeons.

Next topic

Are there any suggestions for the project manager to spend their time focused on a particular project right now in Aeon or should they continue the same tasks?

BMO-noire 28-Feb-19 09:21 PM

I think you're doing a great job

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 09:21 PM

thanks!

Anyone else have suggestions?

Ok moving on

Next topic has been a heated one the past few days.

Many community members have voiced their opinions about Aeon making a POW change recently. Members have suggested a few options: CN-Turtle, CN-Random, CN-X, Single Hash change, Prog-POW, and also SHA3

Along with this we wanted to discuss removing rings 1-4 and a possible Locking of ring sizes

Let's talk about these options

BMO-noire 28-Feb-19 09:25 PM

From the conversation earlier today between smooth, stoffu, dEBRUYNE, and moneromoo, only two options were left standing: SHA-3 now, or CN-r and a last effort following by perhaps SHA-3 next year.

I'm not knowledgeable on this subject so I'll just listen. I'd be happy to support any decision that's made.

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 09:26 PM

I have been doing some quick research of SHA3 today

BMO-noire 28-Feb-19 09:26 PM

... as a last effort ^

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 09:26 PM

<BigSlim> possibly @smooth @stoffu or @moneromooo can chime in

<smooth> im in favor of trying a lite version of cn-r and maybe randomx if it matures to the point of usability

<smooth> but im not in favor of changing just to change. people need to accept that if the asic-resistance effort reaches the point of clear failure then we make one switch to asic friendly and never change again (absent failure of the hash function itself)

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 09:29 PM

Here are some quick reference links for SHA3: 404Gh available for rent (1000x current aeon hash rate) https://www.miningrigrentals.com/rigs/sha3 , Quick reference of SHA3 supported coins and hash rates https://coinguides.org/keccak-algorithm-miner-coins/ , General wiki for SHA3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SHA-3

Mining Rig Rentals | Sha3-Keccak Rigs

MiningRigRentals.com focuses on providing a top level mining rig rental service. The focus is to unite renters and rig owners for the purpose of exchanging Crypto-currency for mining time. A secure, safe, better alternative to similar services online.

coinguides

Keccak hashing algorithm (SHA-3) - Keccak Coins and miner for Keccak

Keccak is SHA-3 encryption algorithm. Here we've listed miners for Keccak and all the coins that are based on Keccak Proof of Work algorithm.

SHA-3

SHA-3 (Secure Hash Algorithm 3) is the latest member of the Secure Hash Algorithm family of standards, released by NIST on August 5, 2015. Although part of the same series of standards, SHA-3 is internally different from the MD5-like structure of SHA-1 and SHA-2.
SHA-3 is a s...

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 09:29 PM

<smooth> constant forks is a hazard

<monerobux> [WIKIPEDIA] SHA-3 | "SHA-3 (Secure Hash Algorithm 3) is the latest member of the Secure Hash Algorithm family of standards, released by NIST on August 5, 2015. Although part of the same series of standards, SHA-3 is internally different from the MD5-like structure of SHA-1 and SHA-2.SHA-3 is a subset of the broader cryptographic..."

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 09:31 PM

I believe that our best course of action right now is to merge CNr and see how it goes for Aeon. If it does not work 1-for asic prevention or 2- to maintain lightness of the platform, I believe that we can prepare ourselves for SHA3 algo as suggested by Stoffu since it is still "currently" gpu friendly.

Just note that SHA3 seems to be VERY CUDA (nvidia) GPU favor for mining unlike current AMD favor mining for CN V* algos.

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 09:33 PM

<smooth> sha3 is an option today but i dont think we need to make that decision now nor should pre-commit to a particular hash function. next fork would be 6 months or a year away or possibly longer, so we can reevaluate the situation at that time

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 09:33 PM

This is on minimal research though. It may differ on Aeon or other CN coins.

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 09:34 PM

<smooth> however it should be some simple function which will be ultimately (even if not immediately) asic-friendly

BMO-noire 28-Feb-19 09:34 PM

I would rather see CN-r, however, I will parrot dEB's argument since he isn't here: Why not go SHA-3 now since this algorithm is ASIC-resistant for the time being, and since we will need to eventually switch?

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 09:34 PM

<smooth> sha-3 is not at all asic resistant

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 09:34 PM

I definitely think we should research the best option for Aeon. That takes time, but it seems there are individuals who have already done some research on this topic.

BMO-noire 28-Feb-19 09:35 PM

err, I should say, since asics are currently not made for the algorithm

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 09:35 PM

<smooth> when asics are built they will be 1000x faster or something

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 09:35 PM

yes

You have to see though that Aeon has only forked 2 times for POW change since inception

2 times almost 5 years

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 09:36 PM

<smooth> prior to 2017 cn was successful asic-resistant

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 09:37 PM

Are there even any current miners that support SHA3 aeon hobby miners could use?

GPU/CPU wise?

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 09:37 PM

<smooth> there are probably not any current miners, but it wouldn't be hard to modify them

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 09:37 PM

And if so, will they support current use case or can they be updated?

That will be a big question from smaller miners.

Someone would need to fork and update say CPUmultiminer from way back to account for a new change

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 09:38 PM

<smooth> a miner needs to support cryptonote headers as well as the hash algorithm. most miners if they support different algorithms use btc/ltc style headers

<stoffu> smooth: Whatâ€™s your view on the feasibility of ASIC resistance either through 1) POW (like RabdomX) being really resistant, or 2) changing POW indefinitely every time ASICs appear?

<BigSlim> didn't @stoffu update ccminer or something for Aeon in 2017?

<stoffu> Or can it be feasible in some other ways I missed?

<smooth> im not in favor of changing indefinitely, at least not super-frequently

<smooth> i dont like the risk of screw ups being introduced every six months. maybe every few years is okay

<smooth> i think hard forks should become less frequent as a coin matures

<smooth> which would indeed be the case except for this pow change ting

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 09:40 PM

this /\

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 09:40 PM

<smooth> *thing

<jwinterm> I wonder if aeon switched to sha3 if it's large enough to attract dedicated hardware

<smooth> jwinterm: probably not but maybe fpgas, at least on some sort of auto-switching basis

<jwinterm> I kind of doubt it, but vertcoin did for something at least a bit more exotic

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 09:41 PM

I think if Aeon put its-self out there and made some big strides that it would attract this

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 09:42 PM

<stoffu> I donâ€™t like to wait for unknown amount of times doing what I believe is wrong without no good reason.

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 09:42 PM

right now, I don't believe it attracts this

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 09:42 PM

<smooth> you're right, its really hard to say what dedicated hardware might be built. i guess there are some cheaper ways of doing it for low-volume applications

<stoffu> Maybe then Aeon became too big, only a bit smaller then Monero.

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 09:43 PM

stoffu, you seem to have some knowledge of SHA3, do you believe this is a good fit for aeon right now or should we research other options?

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 09:43 PM

<stoffu> We might need an even smaller coin to experiment something new.

<jwinterm> there are reference implementations available: https://ehash.iaik.tugraz.at/wiki/SHA-3_Hardware_Implementations

<jwinterm> it would probably cost like $50 to do a run at 130 nm

<jwinterm> or something

<jwinterm> someone might do it

<stoffu> Iâ€™m no crypto expert, but multiple credible sources said SHA3 would be good for POW compared to others.

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 09:44 PM

Stoffu, would you like to research options like SHA3 or asic friendly for Aeon and provide an informational document we can present professionally to the community on this?

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 09:45 PM

<smooth> $50? what

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 09:45 PM

For future reference that is

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 09:45 PM

<stoffu> Itâ€™s well reviewed also

<jwinterm> sha3 was selected by NIST as follower to sha256, it was designed to be hardware friendly

<jwinterm> maybe $50 slight exaggeration

<smooth> Maybe $50K

420Coupe 28-Feb-19 09:46 PM

the question being what if we as a community raise funds and can hire say someone like obelisk to design OS plans for an asic

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 09:46 PM

So on this discussion tonight on POW change, Do we believe that merging CN-r is the best current option for Aeon and see how it goes?

...

thinkpol 28-Feb-19 09:48 PM

just going to point out that you all have the option of switching to the original CN-lite, for which the code is mature and there are already (cheap) ASICs available

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 09:48 PM

cnv1?

I think we need a decision of direction here for what we are going to do now for POW change.

BMO-noire 28-Feb-19 09:50 PM

Isn't the story Siacoin's Obelisk one of failure? I remember hearing that a major ASIC manufacture sabotaged the development of Siacoin's miner by forcing the smaller manufactures to stop development, then timed the release their own device in a way that obsoleted what Siacoin was trying produce. I remember reading this drama somewhere, am I wrong?

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 09:52 PM

<smooth> cn-lite/cnv1 asics are dumb and i would never support that

<BigSlim> @smooth @stoffu , do you believe that we should commit to merging CN-R next

420Coupe 28-Feb-19 09:52 PM

there was some drama where bitmain/innosilicon released asic's for their algo ahead of them, they secretly built in some 'kill-switch' (extra-board) to fork off all the existing asics and make their own asics the only capable. They plan to release OS plans after all batchs are distributed i believe

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 09:52 PM

<stoffu> Thereâ€™s surely a risk for such a big change, I understand that. If this risk prevents Aeon from making radical decisions, then it seems to be the same as Monero to me. It became too big and too afraid to take risks.

<stoffu> IMO, any crypto project is risky with no guarantee whatsoever.

<BigSlim> I agree

420Coupe 28-Feb-19 09:53 PM

^ i second this.

thinkpol 28-Feb-19 09:53 PM

not sure what makes an asic dumb but it's nonetheless a thing that exists

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 09:54 PM

<stoffu> I donâ€™t see a point of becoming too conservative, especially if thereâ€™s a logical reason to support.

<smooth> thinkpol it is dumb because the only purpose of a cryptonight-type algorithm is to be asic resistant

<BigSlim> Stoffu, can you commit to making the necessary CN-R changes once we have the latest monero merges done

<smooth> you would never use such an algorithm with asics

<smooth> the fact that someone was able to circumvent the asic-resistance isn't a reason to use it

<stoffu> BigSlim: probably no.

<stoffu> Someone else can do it.

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 09:55 PM

ok.

Is the Aeon code up to date and ready for CN-R merge?

420Coupe 28-Feb-19 09:56 PM

no

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 09:56 PM

What still needs to be completed to be able to merge this?

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 09:57 PM

<smooth> there is a few lines of changes needed for the smaller scratchpad, and then similar for miners and pool code. it isn't hard to do at all but someone needs to do it

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 09:57 PM

We still have no clear decision on what we want to do as far as POW change tonight.

Can someone provide instructions on what needs to be changed in the Aeon code for POW change?

BMO-noire 28-Feb-19 09:58 PM

Well, if CN-r is the decision, what needs to be done to make this happen?

I'm not sure how we gauge consensus

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 09:58 PM

<stoffu> Probably moneromooo is willing to help.

<smooth> to do cn-r it is what i said (a few lins of changes) on top of the usual monero merge

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 09:59 PM

People have voiced their opinions today.

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 09:59 PM

<smooth> plus the same for pool and miner code

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 09:59 PM

can we merge CNr with our current code status

or do we need more monero commits merged before this

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:00 PM

<smooth> i doubt any other changes matter to cn-r

camthegeek 28-Feb-19 10:00 PM

CNv2 seems to be required for CN-Random.

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:00 PM

omitting bulletproofs and RingCT

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:00 PM

<smooth> well you can just replace the whole slow_hash.c

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:00 PM

ok

Can someone commit to making the necessary CN-R changes for Aeon?

thinkpol 28-Feb-19 10:01 PM

put it up on the funding system. someone will claim it. 😃

BMO-noire 28-Feb-19 10:01 PM

moneromoo already volunteered to make a pr for CNr, I think

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:02 PM

moo is not here unfortunately. If he wanted to make a PR, could someone ping him when he is available for this?

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:03 PM

<smooth> stoffu: i dont think switching to sha3 is too risky for aeon. it could be done if people really wanted it but there doesn't seem to be any sort of big push for it, more like curious interest (my take, could be wrong)

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:04 PM

So at this point I want to say that we have consensus that Aeon is going to make a POW change to CN-R and that when merged we can set up testing and code review and set a date for Forking. Many members of the community have already commented they will help test CN-R once the code is merged.

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:04 PM

<stoffu> A few people seem supportive of it.

420Coupe 28-Feb-19 10:04 PM

Im more for embracing ASICS

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:04 PM

<stoffu> Not everyone, of course

420Coupe 28-Feb-19 10:05 PM

They’re inevitable if the incentive is there

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:05 PM

IT is what it is for asics. If CN-r does not work, we should research the best option for Aeon

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:06 PM

<stoffu> My response to that is: "we already know CN-R doesn't work, unconditionally"

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:06 PM

I do not believe we have time for further POW discussion tonight. The additional 7.1 topic of removing rings 1-4 and locked rings to keep aeon fungible will need to be discussed at a later Meeting.

mosu_forge 28-Feb-19 10:06 PM

That cn-r part of the chain will be there forever. If it makes things slower to compute on mobile devices you can never get rid of it. I’m interested in seeming a sha3 cryptonote coin.

Just my 2 cents before the discussion moves on

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:06 PM

thanks for the input mosu

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:07 PM

<stoffu> There are a few votes for sha3

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:07 PM

dually noted

420Coupe 28-Feb-19 10:07 PM

^ this aeon is supposed to be geared towards mobile utility

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:08 PM

ok let's move on here before we end tonight for some additional topics

thinkpol 28-Feb-19 10:08 PM

i'm for sha3 at this point... as stoffu pointed out earlier, there could be something to being the first cn coin with sha3

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:08 PM

@Thunderosa set up a branding/marketing AFS for Aeon

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:09 PM

<smooth> mosu_forge you only need to verify old pow if you are unwilling to use checkpoints so the old portion of the chain would be irrelevant for 99%

mosu_forge 28-Feb-19 10:09 PM

Good point, hadn’t considered that honestly

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:10 PM

<stoffu> I don't like this attitude of recommending people to trust the checkpoints.

<smooth> it is true the code would need to stick around, that's a cost

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:10 PM

Did you have some topics to discuss @Thunderosa https://aeonfunding.com/proposal/25

AEON Funding System

AEON Funding System - Make proposals related to AEON and get paid in cryptocurrency (AEON)!

BMO-noire 28-Feb-19 10:10 PM

how do we weigh the votes for sha3 vs. cnr?

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:10 PM

<stoffu> Checkpoints should be considered as some necessary evil

<smooth> stoffu: most people want fast sync so they are going to use the checkpoints regardless of the algorithm

<smooth> but for sure it should still be possible to fully validate

<stoffu> Like importing blockchain without verifying, or using remote nodes.

<stoffu> We should be encouraging full (slow) verification.

<smooth> those are actually worse than a checkpoint imo

<stoffu> Why?

<smooth> because a checkpoint still commits to the full contents of every block

<smooth> for it to be invalid would require that no one ever validated it and raised an alarm

<smooth> some random remote node or import on its own could be literally anything

<stoffu> But what ultimately matters should be the cumulative difficulty, no?

thinkpol 28-Feb-19 10:13 PM

are aeon's checkpoints in the code itself?

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:13 PM

<smooth> neither remote node nor an import even looks at the difficulty

<stoffu> That seems to matter more than the fact that no one voiced an alarm.

<smooth> the point is there is only one possible chain for a given checkpoint

<smooth> so you need to check it once.

<smooth> for some remote node there are any number of different ways it could mislead you

<stoffu> Fast syncing also doesn't check difficulty, right?

<smooth> or likewise unvalidated import

<smooth> right, it only checks the hash

<smooth> so you can be sure that you have the same chain as the checkpoint

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:14 PM

good points

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:14 PM

<stoffu> But that's not the original way of PoW.

<smooth> i think there would be a way to improve on that

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:14 PM

many new forked coins or fresh chain coins do not use checkpoints

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:14 PM

<stoffu> PoW should be in principle determined by the cumulative diff.

<smooth> instead of checkpoint you could call it pre-validated

<stoffu> I really don't want to rely so much on checkpoints.

<smooth> so if there were another chain without checkpoints with higher pow you would still choose it

<stoffu> Would you?

<smooth> the concepts of validating and fork choice are independant really

<smooth> stoffu: i dont understand the question

<stoffu> I thought wownero once rejected 51% attack chain by using checkpoints.

<stoffu> The attacker chain had higher cum diff but was rejected by centrally controlled checkpoints.

<smooth> the code of every existing cryptonote coin i know about would reject based on checkpoints

<smooth> im just saying that could be changed, if you wanted to

<stoffu> Ah OK

<smooth> you could still have fast sync without any security 'advantage'. the two are independent

<stoffu> Fast sync means skipping verification for older heights, right? How is that unrelated to security?

<smooth> security in the sense of fork choice

<smooth> fast sync is essentially precomputing

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:18 PM

Good discussion here on this. Can we possibly table this topic for another meeting ?

We can always schedule meetings for specific topics

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:19 PM

<stoffu> And that precomputing was done by someone other than you.

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:19 PM

That is not an issue

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:19 PM

<smooth> stoffu: yes, but the point is there is at least a way to definitively refute it

<smooth> unlike a remote node

thinkpol 28-Feb-19 10:19 PM

stoffu, i see that the checkpoints are in the code itself. that precomputing was done by you guys, the developers.

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:19 PM

<stoffu> True trustless system shouldn't rely on such precomputed data.

thinkpol 28-Feb-19 10:19 PM

they're centrally controlled just like the code

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:20 PM

<stoffu> To refute it, you'd have to fully verify. And that's the most important functionality of a daemon.

<stoffu> That must be kept fast and efficient.

<smooth> i would argue it must be feasible, not necessarily maximally efficient

<smooth> if it becomes infeasible then no one will do it

<smooth> some chains arguably approach that like eth

<stoffu> If it becomes infeasible, I think that's when the protocol failed.

<stoffu> Yes, ETH is close to death, I think.

<smooth> i would agree

<stoffu> And we should be more afraid of that scenario.

<smooth> but as long as it is feasible then i dont see a problem with some people wanting fast sync

<stoffu> Like Bitcoin people are.

<stoffu> Sure, fast sync will always be wanted.

<smooth> for example, feasible on x86 might still require fast sync for reaonable usability on rpi

<stoffu> But full sync will also always be feasible and necessary.

BMO-noire 28-Feb-19 10:22 PM

was it decided that Aeon is going with CN-r?

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:22 PM

<smooth> agree it is necessary that it be feasible

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:23 PM

One can run a node on better hardware to sync the chain then move that file to a slower hardware daemon

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:23 PM

<stoffu> s/will/should

<monerobux> stoffu meant to say: But full sync should also always be feasible and necessary.

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:23 PM

I have done this for over two years now

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:23 PM

<smooth> yes as long as the better hardware is readily accessible, not a supercomputer, etc.

<stoffu> agreed

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:23 PM

8 core processor vs 2 core processor (or rpi)

or mobile

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:23 PM

<stoffu> What I wanted to say is that full validation does matter, so old blocks do matter in the future.

<smooth> i think we should discuss this sha3 idea some more, perhaps not reach a conclusion with this meeting

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:24 PM

old blocks do matter. Currently block sync takes between 45-85 minutes on modern SSD hardware

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:24 PM

<stoffu> Sure

<smooth> there is more support for sha3 than i had expected

<stoffu> I didn't expect it too.

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:24 PM

yes, you were very surprised when people posted pre-rebase sync times

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:24 PM

<smooth> stoffu: sure, i would agree with old blocks mattering. but i dont think that cn-r is a major issue.

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:25 PM

IT went from 2 days to 45 minutes

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:25 PM

<smooth> it is about the same speed as existing cn

<stoffu> True, but it'd be additional cost compared to the scenario of switching to SHA3.

mosu_forge 28-Feb-19 10:25 PM

It’s an interesting concept for sure. I agree with the fact that using cryptonight v1 as an asic friendly algo is backwards, which all other asic friendly coins do

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:26 PM

<stoffu> CryptoNight is orders of magnitude more costly than SHA3, even though it's done only once per blocks.

<stoffu> s/blocks/block

<monerobux> stoffu meant to say: CryptoNight is orders of magnitude more costly than SHA3, even though it's done only once per block.

<smooth> yes

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:26 PM

So if we fork to CNr and it is not working by the end of 2019, should we discuss our next option, which would be planned for a hopeful final change

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:26 PM

<smooth> and there are benefits to fast syncing of headers

<smooth> even for new blocks

<stoffu> Benefits other than being able to sync fast?

<smooth> i mean you can sync only the headers, know you are on the right chain

<smooth> at which point the difference between sha3 and cn(any) is a lot more significant

<smooth> you can then sync the rest in the background for example, if there are parts you dont care about you dont have to wait for them

<stoffu> Ah OK

<smooth> or not at all, if you dont need full validation at that particular moment

<smooth> cn isn't horrible bad like some really slow hashes. you can sync a day of aeon headers in 10 seconds or less on most hardware

<smooth> but that still may be worst than optimal if you are several days behind

<smooth> needing to wait a minute or longer vs maybe a second with a fast hash like sha3

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:32 PM

it takes 15 minutes to resync a wallet from 0 on modern hardware

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:32 PM

<smooth> thats fast sync

<smooth> or if you mean syncing just wallet not node then really not syncing at all, just scanning

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:32 PM

It takes 45 minutes to fully sync on same device a daemon from 0 and wallet from 0 to current block height

thinkpol 28-Feb-19 10:33 PM

is that using the internal checkpoints??

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:33 PM

15 minutes to sync a brand new wallet from block 0 to current height with a fully synced daemon

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:33 PM

<smooth> fast sync is using internal checkpoints

<smooth> 45 minutes is probably that

<smooth> full validation is much slower afaik

<smooth> we should probably test it

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:34 PM

https://twitter.com/AeonCommunity/status/1084657871793590272

AeonCommunity (@AeonCommunity)

Just synced $AEON wallet from block 0 to 1044266 with a local node in 16:04. Love that 1mb scratchpad.

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:34 PM

<monerobux> [ AeonCommunity on Twitter: "Just synced $AEON wallet from block 0 to 1044266 with a local node in 16:04. Love that 1mb scratchpad.â€¦ " ] - twitter.com

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:35 PM

sorry 16:04 to sync...

I timed these

this was using GUI not CLI though

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:35 PM

<smooth> probably the same

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:35 PM

14 minutes was the resacan I believe

after sync

cam inquired about these

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:36 PM

<smooth> sha3 requires not only hooking up the hash in the daemon but also pool and miner code

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:36 PM

In relation Monero was 32 minutes IIRC same task

cam has the numbers for those

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:37 PM

<smooth> (true of any function but cn variants can get most of the work done by monero already, with tiny tweaks)

<stoffu> I'm willing to contribute to that effort.

<smooth> great, that's certainly a positive

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:38 PM

what effort?

thinkpol 28-Feb-19 10:38 PM

smooth, stoffu, what would you want if you were choosing? cn-r or sha3?

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:39 PM

<smooth> im neutral. i respect the arguments for boith

<stoffu> An effort to build software infrastructure for SHA3 mining (pools, CPU/GPU miners)

mosu_forge 28-Feb-19 10:39 PM

The node multi hashing already supports keccak https://github.com/zone117x/node-multi-hashing

Used for pools

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:39 PM

<stoffu> I'm for SHA3 obviously

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:39 PM

Stoffu, would you like to research options like SHA3 or asic friendly for Aeon and provide an informational document we can present professionally to the community on this?

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:39 PM

<smooth> 'keccak' and sha3 differs only in terms of some header byte or something i believe

<stoffu> I believe so, too.

mosu_forge 28-Feb-19 10:40 PM

So it wouldn’t be hard to change that module from one to the other. That’s 99.9% of the pool changes

Only caveat is that pools would need both the multi hashing and cryptonote hashing libs for the switch

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:41 PM

<stoffu> BigSlim: I don't think such document is necessary. SHA3 is already well known.

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:41 PM

ok

It would be more so for informational and educational purposes for community members

more like an overview such as "hey this is what sha3 is and why it would be good for aeon" type of deal

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:42 PM

<jwinterm> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SHA-3

SHA-3

SHA-3 (Secure Hash Algorithm 3) is the latest member of the Secure Hash Algorithm family of standards, released by NIST on August 5, 2015. Although part of the same series of standards, SHA-3 is internally different from the MD5-like structure of SHA-1 and SHA-2.
SHA-3 is a s...

<monerobux> [WIKIPEDIA] SHA-3 | "SHA-3 (Secure Hash Algorithm 3) is the latest member of the Secure Hash Algorithm family of standards, released by NIST on August 5, 2015. Although part of the same series of standards, SHA-3 is internally different from the MD5-like structure of SHA-1 and SHA-2.SHA-3 is a subset of the broader cryptographic..."

<jwinterm> sorry

<stoffu> If we're going SHA3, I guess at some point some final statement has to be made and posted to various channels.

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:43 PM

yea a final statement sure but this is more so like opening the door on the idea for the community

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:43 PM

<stoffu> Yeah, then a discussion thread on reddit maybe

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:43 PM

that would be fantastic

So at this point, can we make a decision as to what direction Aeon is going moving forward today?

There have been some good discussions tonight on many topics.

From my tallies tonight there are 6 members for asic friendly change now and 3 members for CN-r changes now

Are there any final thoughts on this tonight before we close out this discussion?

Did everyone lose internet connection?

Thunderosa 28-Feb-19 10:51 PM

If Aeon is going SHA-3 in the future,...might as well go now. For the reasons brought up, but also there would be a goodly amount of attention that Aeon would get from stepping out of Monero's shadow. So,...good for marketing.

thinkpol 28-Feb-19 10:52 PM

agreed

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:52 PM

thanks for the comment

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:54 PM

<stoffu> Iâ€™m sure itâ€™ll catch a lot of attention. moneromooo also said heâ€™d be curious what SHA3 Aeon will look like.

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:54 PM

So I believe we will close out tonights discussion on POW change with a consensus that Aeon will move to step out of the CN hash to a possible more asic friendly hash algo such as SHA3 and that Stoffu has approved drafting a document with research for this proposed change along with formulating an infrastructure for mining these proposed changes.

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:54 PM

<stoffu> If it catches attention, the price will rise, and ASICs appear :P

<stoffu> If not, hobby miners can continue enjoy GPU mining

Thunderosa 28-Feb-19 10:55 PM

No more botnets though.

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:55 PM

<stoffu> I think CPU mining wonâ€™t be really worthwhile

<stoffu> GPU seems far better

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:56 PM

On our last topic Thunderosa says he wanted to answer any questions or comments in regards to his AFS proposal or marketing

are there any thing you want to add tonight @Thunderosa ?

Thunderosa 28-Feb-19 10:57 PM

Not really, I've started working on some ideas ahead of the funding....so it's moving along.

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:57 PM

<stoffu> I think the decision is still pending. There are many people who couldnâ€™t join this time.

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:57 PM

We can allow additional comments at tomorrow AM community meeting in #mar_1_2019-6am-cst

At that point we can make a final decision on Friday and draft a post for the community on this.

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 10:58 PM

<stoffu> Iâ€™ll post a discussion thread on reddit and a link to it on bitcointalk

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 10:58 PM

Community members have been given a chance to attend todays meeting and also tomorrows meeting with supplied agenda.

If you have any additional timeline suggestions before closing out the discussion with a final decision please feel free to post a response time window in your reddit post.

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 11:00 PM

Leaving the door open on major decisions such as this will only lead to further delay and community members have voiced their opinions on aeon not committing to any changes or direction.

We have had 2 days of good constructive discussion on discord and IRC in regards to this major POW change and direction of Aeon and also some good discussion tonight. I will post a link on twitter for your reddit post and if @smooth could post on the official Aeon account that would be great.

IF there are no further questions or comments I believe we can close out this meeting tonight.

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 11:03 PM

<stoffu> Thank you for organizing it!

thinkpol 28-Feb-19 11:03 PM

thank you smooth and stoffu for hanging out and answering questions!

thanks @BigSlim for running everything

BMO-noire 28-Feb-19 11:03 PM

It's good to see things in motion again!

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 11:03 PM

Thank you everyone for joining tonight and voicing your thoughts and opinions about the Aeon community and Aeon project!

IRCBridge 28-Feb-19 11:03 PM

<stoffu> My pleasure

BigSlim 28-Feb-19 11:04 PM

A full log will be provided within a few days here on our official Aeon Community Repo.

Let's hope for a good 2019 for Aeon!!

👋

I will be locking the channel for comments now. IRC bridge will be down until tomorrow AM.